When a Facebook friend moaned about Remoaners not debating his points, I answered he should try debating with Remainers, after all he is not a Brexshiter nor a Brextremist. He has his reasons for wanting Leave, and I respect them, but as he asked, here was my reply.
When there are several views of the future within government which view will be put in place in Independent UK?
At the moment we have a “war cabinet” and politicians asking for blind faith in their vision (by asking faith in their country which is easy to get). That vision keeps changing and is built on sand. People who let their governments lead them to unknown places knowingly are in danger of being led into darkness. Giving faith to a cabinet fighting a civil war is the biggest gamble the UK is taking since I don’t know when. If we were bankers we’d ask for a proper business plan before backing a new venture. This is the future of the nation for my children’s generation we are paving. Faith over facts does not do it for me.
The EU Parliament ensures that the extremes on both sides of the political spectrum in the EU and the countries within are tempered by the middle ground, means compromises, sure, but also means less danger for one country to go too far in one direction or the other as can happen anywhere. Was that not the biggest lesson of the 20th century in Europe?
Poor people in the EU are still a lot better off than those in the US when it comes to health, holiday or maternity pay. Governments do not have their nose in every company’s affairs as much as in China. Despite corruption in the EU (power will always get to some peoples’ head the wrong way, does not mean all politicians are shit heads and they can only be removed in democracies), the EU is way more democratic than South America or Africa which is why progressives there are building blocs on the EU model.
A weaker EU is great economically for Russia, and politically for the US, is it any good for any European country? What sort of deals will we have to make to tap into these growth markets blocs more than now? Will the UK negotiate with these blocs or will it try and negotiate bi-lateral deals behind closed doors with the countries that are less aligned with their blocs and see if divide and rule still works?
Yes the UK had the biggest and best empire, but it came at the price of millions of Indians killed, without the navy there would have been no such empire, trade was not the only element that ensured the winning. Not all Commonwealth countries have forgotten that, and as France still has to deal with the legacy of its empire going pear shaped, the UK must understand the full legacy from the invaded countries’ perspective when it goes knocking on their door again, not just the British side of the story. No disrespect but the UK is called “Perfidious Albion” by many for historical reasons. May has not addressed the Plenary in the EU to give a vision of the new partnership but Davis has been talking to individual countries behind closed doors to see if he can convince some to break the common front the EU is putting forward to protect the EU, as is the Commission’s job. It might work, or it might back fire. Time will tell.
If it works, it will be the end of the EU, and it will be in great part because the UK did not want to compromise enough to ensure that Europe could move forward peacefully. Make no mistake, those who hold peace top of the agenda will not forgive the UK if this happens. Farage is as hated as Le Pen by most MEP’s for banging on about immigration knowing full well the dangers, but at least France pushed Le Pen back a few years, the UK welcomed Farage’s vision into government. It might be politically astute, better keep the enemy close, no doubt the UK is extremely politically astute, but this is not the perception of the UK for many in the EU and there is always the danger that the enemy within end up killing the King under the nose of a sleepy nation.
Which EU laws are such a problem for the UK that risking peace within Europe warrant full sovereignty of the UK in a global world where issues are international and better fought from a position of strength in numbers on a global level? When the UK Parliament asks Zuckerberg to turn up on the small matter of the referendum, does he? Are laws to govern the internet (which is both a huge potential and a massive threat depending which hands use the keyboard) better if each and every country has their own, or on a continental level? Environment? Mass migration from global warming and wars that UK, France and the US get financial benefit from with their arm sales? Fighting extremism whether political or supposedly religious? Everything is inter-related, we can’t just take some of the good building blocs that rely on each other for strength out of the edifice and be surprised when the whole thing crumbles.
Peace is way more in people’s psyche on the continent, my country was invaded, my German friends have an even bigger chip on their shoulder, millions of us are shit scared of seeing fascism raise its ugly head, and the seed of it is all over Europe again. As for the UK’s psyche it won the wars that mattered against the Germans and the French in the end, and yet, it has not won the economy war enough from its capitalist Free Trade perspective and hates not being the rightful top dog in the EU. Those who want to be top dog rather than compromise within the EU for whatever reason they deem worthwhile, always bring back the very reason the majority of Germans and French have peace at the top of their list: that the Germans killed millions of people (aided by the French) not that long ago and must be feared as they want to take over the EU (and French are cowards as my kid’s teacher said to him in primary school a decade ago, that was a nice wake up call for understanding British perspective).
Leave.eu rebutted Remain with “Project Fear” but what is the UK going to do exactly when it “takes back control”? What does it exactly mean?
What are the consequences of Tarif Free Free Trade with African, Asian and South American properly corrupt countries where not “just” one MP died but dozens of activists do yearly? Did Fox manage to get a deal on steel out of the US after Trump imposed tariffs for the EU? Is the EU really that bad compared to the rest of the world?
I want to be convinced that the UK is headed for a bright future, I have no idea whether Macron’s vision will work, but at least he is putting forward a well argumented and positive vision for France and for the EU. I so wish we were still working together, as out of the EU we will be competing with each other on grounds that will open old wounds, as has already started, not continue to try and heal them.